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davidsacks

6 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2006 :  11:42:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Great, thanks for such a informative reply.

1) Part of what I was trying to discover, was whether my friend would shoot with (a) a fake gun and (b) a real one. Now as I have stated, I do not want to use a real gun. I leave that up to the "big boys", like you. So let me ask, what are your experiences with such scenarios?

2) If I had to suggest he was angry or needed so shoot in self defense he would (as he shot the pillow i.e. person). So I believe my version is better, as my friend was had a neutral frame of mind. Thus revealing what he would do.

3) Why is there such hostility to newbies. Some of them do actually learn and read all the material they can get. I know hypnosis can be dangerous... so then you professionals should give advice that would curb any danger.

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anthony

Canada
305 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2006 :  1:58:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
David, it seems you misunderstand why this board exists, and why highly skilled practitioners attend it. NO we are not responsible for teaching you, guiding you, or giving you any help at all when all you are willing to do is read books and hope we will cover your ignorance for you. Let me try to explain it in a simple way that cannot be misunderstood. Would you go to your doctor, and say,"doc, I am studying medicine from books, and would like to be able to ask your advice when I reach the point where I am ready to do a simple surgery, such as appendectomy or hysterectomy" Now I am betting that you will reply that you wouldn't dream of being so stupid, am I right? But why not? Surely there are plenty of medical books available for all to read, so why not study via them, and practise on friends when ready for surgery? Now if you did ask this of your doctor, I am sure he or she would not be insulted, they would merely consider you a complete idiot, not worthy of their anger, and I suggest to you that that is exactly how we feel about it also. On the other hand, and in fairness, we do pay taxes, much of which goes to education, and I understand that you have received a good one, so where is the problem?
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davidsacks

6 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2006 :  3:25:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, I understand completely that you, and most of the people on the board are skilled hypnotists, that have had extensive training. However, I am not only willing to read books, I live in South Africa, and there is no real market for hypnotism here, therefore, finding training is very difficult. As of now, I am trying to sign up for a course, I am waiting for details.

I do not practice any hypnotherapy. Real physiological dangers come from untrained hypnotherapists. If I hypnotize someone, I remove all suggestions and choose every word I use carefully, to ensure no ambiguity.

Can I ask you, which is better: A responsible, intelligent person, who has spent months reading books, researching the internet and speaking to people about hypnosis. Or a immature kid, who goes to a day long hypnotism course. Every person who enjoys bashing newbies seems content with the latter.

Also, why do professional, respected hypnotist spend their time writing hypnotism books. Books that can teach anybody how to be a hypnotist? Surely, by your logic this is illegal? Medical books, are not aimed at the lay person, rather at students of medicine. There are hundreds of books written with the intent of the lay person reading it and using it- which is wholly different from your doctor analogy.

I am replying to what you have written. I would like to hear your thoughts on what I have said, rather than your extrapolation.

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anthony

Canada
305 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2006 :  8:51:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Books are part of a complete study, not an end in itself, and who said you are acting responsibly? My perception differs from yours it seems.. As for your excuses for why you are were you are, we have heard all the excuses before, and they are still excuses... We are not responsible for where you live, nor the availability of training. We are not responsible for your monetary condition, which is so often given as an excuse, and we are certainly NOT reponsible for training you to ensure you operate safely. Most of all, we are not responsible for your actions when they are irrisponsible, but might be considered so if we offer advice that encourages you to continue. If you still don't get it, you never will, and I have no intention of wasting my time trying, and neither will any ethical practitioner. I gave you a polite and detailed explanation of why you are getting flack, and now I perceive that you either can't or won't understand, too bad....
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UnAdept

25 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2006 :  9:20:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's obvious that techniques for inducing hypnotic states, and hypnotherapy in specific, cannot be 'trained' or taught over the internet, HOWEVER, there is nothing at all stopping one from sharing ideas, thoughts and opinions over the internet.

Further, there seems to be a lot of resistance against people involving themselves in hypnosis outside the realm of hypnotherapy training courses; well, I'm sorry, but the hypnotic state was around well before hypnotherapy, and the fact remains that there are plenty of people learning how to hypnotize people outside of those courses.

Finally, perhaps those people posing questions about the possible uses and abuses of the entirely natural hypnotic state ARE un- or even misinformed; doesn't it behoove the experienced man to correct these misconceptions, rather then implying that the person is in some way flawed for asking the question? I assume that noone here sprung full-formed from Zeus' fore head as a hypnotherapist? Shouldn't the novice be expected to go through a growing phase as well?

- Hal

Edited by - UnAdept on 02/24/2006 9:22:15 PM
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davidsacks

6 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2006 :  01:56:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Unadept, your my new best friend! Anthony, do you not read what I write? Please comment on what I wrote about hypnotherapy and books and training. Once again you extrapolate and go off on a tangent- I never said you were responsible for anything. You gave me anything but a "polite and detailed explanation":"If you must play, go get a sand box, and stop trying to play with the big boys, when all you have is a toy gun".

Lets discuss this: Books are written specifically for the lay person to read then (within 59 minutes or less, as my one book states) hypnotize people. Now if I follow what the book says, and practice within my scope, how is that wrong? I will admit that my experiment could have been risky, and I have not done anything like that again.

Edited by - davidsacks on 02/25/2006 02:05:36 AM
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mark-gil

United Kingdom
445 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2006 :  09:47:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
David--Unadept--Hal and whoever--------
Martin Orne M.D. was the Head of the Dept. of Psychiatry at the Univ. of Pennsylvania and was one of the founders of the American Society for Clinical Hypnosis. Orne and his associates were vehement in their view that only licensed psychologists and Medical Doctors should
use hypnosis for therapeutic treatment. In a previous post, I recounted how the many legislative bills they generated in their efforts to restrict the practice of hypnotherapy were all defeated in every attempt made. Many academics began challenging their positions and verifying the lack of harmful potential in using hypnosis in any context. I have posted quotes from these professors and psychiatrists attesting to the safety of hypnosis many times. Martin Orne and his ilk are gone and with them their old attitudes and foolish experiments as well.
As to South Africa, I have two former students training hypnotherapists there. Thery traveled halfway around the world
to Los Angeles, to learn their craft, then spent years in practice and are now teaching others. You seem to be a young lad with a bit of "book learning" who wants to joust with the "big boys". I still believe you have your academic bias from your univ. experience and reading and are pursuing your agenda. You are far too late with your outdated and disproven references. Get over it! Go get some meaningful training!
Stop picturing yourself as a powerful debater on a subject you know little about. Gil Boyne

Gil Boyne
www.gil-boyne.com
[Gil Passed Away May 5, 2010]

Edited by - mark-gil on 02/28/2006 09:53:24 AM
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bpargament

Tunisia
5 Posts

Posted - 03/26/2006 :  7:32:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi all.
I read with fascination this exchange and want to accept Hal's explanation that his inquiry was indeed innocent.His question/example was rather dramatic and might not have elicited the same response had it been about a subjest just acting sillyrather than violently. We all know of the misinformation surrounding this field, so a powerful reaction to a question like that didn't arise in a vacuum.
I have no where near the breadth of experience of a Gil Boyne or most of you as I was recently trained by Gerry Kein in Deland but I like Gil and the others who responded don't want inflammatory hearsay to take hold. I guess my question is from all of this, What can we do to elevate the Public's consciousness to this amazing process we call hypnosis? I'd sure like to help.
Bob Pargament
www.hypnosiswestchester.com
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mark-gil

United Kingdom
445 Posts

Posted - 03/26/2006 :  10:52:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Bob, Glad to hear that you trained with Jerry Kein. Jerry trained
with me many years ago. Do not be concerned with public perception,
it is at an all time positive peak. Better than at any time in history.
I wish you a great career.
Gil Boyne
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