Hi, I’m a newbie, but I’ve successfully hypnotized a couple of people. I have a question though. From what I have read, a subject will not do anything under hypnosis they wouldn’t do awake.
So if I gave a knife to a subject and told him to stab me, he wouldn’t (unless he would in a waking state). But if tell him I am giving him a pillow (and truthfully give him a knife) and tell him to hit me with it, would he stab me? Or would he realize he isn’t holding a pillow?
Similarly, if I tell a male subject to kiss another male, would he? Or, if I told him to kiss a woman (who is really a man), would he realize it? Or, if I told him to kiss a man (who is really a woman), would he realize it?
Sorry about the long questions! But I am trying to fully understand the mechanics of hypnosis- David
Our replies to your questions, would be of no value at all, since you are asking about how someone would react if YOU hypnotised them and if YOU gave the suggestions. The only way to find out is to try such experiments for yourself. We have no idea of how much control you have, or how skilled at suggestion have we?
I recall, from my university courses, there was a study in which a subject was hypnotized and told that a beaker full of water was actually acid. The subject was then told to splash another person with the acid, and did so.
Hal, You are doing a great disservice to the hypnotherapists who post here and those who visit this forum by posting unfounded, allegations without references, other than a distant memory of something a professor might have said or you may have read years ago.
For forty years, I have been the foremost political activist working for the protection and preservation of hypnotherapy. From 1976 to 1995, a number of similar legislative bills were introduced in several states which were designed to restrict the practice of hynotherapy to licensed psychologists and physicians. Twelve such bills were introduced in Calif.and every one was defeated as was every similar bill in other states. Proponents of these restrictive bills told horrific tales of patients that required their help because of harm created by a hypnotherapist. Whenever they were asked to produce documentation of their verbal allegations, they strongly replied, "We cannot violate our patients' confidentiality". When informed that the Commitee Chairman could privately view the evidence and maintain patient confidentiality they always refused to provide any evidence other than their anecdotal allegations. As a result, every bill was defeated--Rule of Law---"In the absence of evidence of guilt, innocence must be presumed". Here is the simple truth--there has never been a documented case of harm resulting from the use of hypnotherapy. If there had been, laws would have been passed and penalties prescribed.
I am aware that some point to media stories of sexual offenses that are commited by hypnotists. These incidents are usually the product of feelings of emotional intimacy created by the counseling setting. The largest number of complaints about sexual offenses are from patients of licensed mental health workers and are common to ministers and other spiritual counselors as well. The point is these offenses are not peculiar to hypnotists. The sheer volume of complaints against licensed mental health workers in Calif. became so great that a law was passed that makes sexual interactions between clients and therapists a felony offense.
Many of these complaints have result in prosecution and imprisonment. I believe you have made similar posts in the past which I rebutted as did several informed hypnotherapists.
Hal, you are either misinformed or persuing your own private agenda.
Gil Boyne, Executive Director American Council of Hypnotist Examiners (9700 members in 32 countries)
I agree Gil, and I believe that one of the rules of this board supports your suggestion that no statements or part statements may be made without supporting evidence. I have noticed however, that this is not the first time that this has been done by that same poster, so I imagine it is done with intent to fabricate or obfuscate....That this actually did occur should have been questioned by that poster, since it is hearsay, and not a known fact to him. That such experiments have been carried out is true, and as such have been published, along with both sides of the issue, and indeed I have put forward such statements in full when asked about if this could be done. Hal however has used only part of the statement to make a point that he wished to make regardless of truth, and this I resent, and so should all of us....
We have no written set of rules for posting statements on this board. Our only rules are stated in the registration agreement that everyone must accept in order to join and post as a member: http://hypnosisonline.com/forum/policy.asp
This is not to say we approve of the posting of hearsay statements - only to point out the fact that we have no set of rules about such things.
Well, I must say, I'm a little surprised at this response. First, what I posted, I presented as hearsay - I made no claim that my statement was based off anything other then my personal rememberances, and that it should be taken in that light.
Secondly, I'm under the impression that this forum is generally focused on hypnosis, as distinguished from hypnotherapy - while hypnotherapy certainly is an entirely valid field within hypnosis, one is a phenomena, the other is a method of treatment. Discussing the phenomenon can occur without discussing the manner in which treatment can occur.
Thirdly, while it is indeed possible I have been misinformed - though I do not believe that to be the case - I find it rather difficult to precieve a private agenda I might be following other then a general, amaturish interest in the hypnotic phenomenon; which I would assume would be something that even the most hardened academic could get behind.
I would ask, though, to what end would I 'fabricate or obfuscate' anything?
Finally, I'm not sure what these other posts in the same vein the other posters refer to might be (At this point, I should make a point to differentiate the Hal posting under the handle "UnAdept" and the Hal posting as "hal"; we are two distinct entities, his posts have nothing to do with me.).
- Hal
P.S. To clarify: I am not the individual posting under the pseudonom 'hal'. I'm certain, and this may be verified, that he posted from a different IP address and is not, in fact, me.
There still is a policy with many state psychology Associations that "lay hypnotists"(their term) are dangerous quacks. They refuse to use the word hypnotherapist still holding a position that the only legimate therapists are state licensed mental helth workers. I have collected evidence that most of the ficticious stories about harmful uses of hypnosis are posted by such people. The purpose is to persuade those reading the posts that the dangers really do exist. They are bitter and furious that they have lost every legal battle; They feel threatened by the world wide spread of hypnotherapy and the enormous media attention it draws and the history of successes with the most difficult issues. This is the hidden agenda!Why else would anyone choose to put unfounded, unproven allegations on a public forum to harm and disparage an international group of practicioners using hypnosis. When these people are exposed, they claim to be an amateur with little knowledge. Yet,the very wording of their response discloses the extent of their knowledge. Gil Boyne
UNADEPT. Since you append a signature to your posts, it is normal courtesy to reply using the name rather than the sig...Having reread you post, it does indeed suggest to me, and also it seems to Gil, that what you said is easily miscontrued as you being an observer of this experiment, and not something you had heard or read. As for this board being for HYPNOSIS and not for those who use it for the normal purposes, be it Stage hypnosis, or therapy, it would not last long if it were true. THERE IS NOT SUCH THING AS HYPNOSIS....The word is a misnomer, and was recognised as such by the man who coined it, but too late to prevent it catching on, and we therefor use it in the knowledge that the general population knows vaguely what it means. Until what you call "the phenomenon" is used for specific purposes, it is nothing more than a natural state of trance, or a normal state rather than a controlled state. Neither this board nor any online method is adaptable for teaching, or indeed for describing hypnosis in more than general terms, so you will need to consult books if you wish to investigate it, some reffering to hypnosis, and some to psycology. I do assume of course that it is your intent to understand this "phenomena" since you are reading on this board....
Well, first, I'd like to ask Mr. Boyne - whatever you'd perfer I call you - is it your assertation that I'm deliberately trying to set back the cause of hypnotherapy by spreading false rumors about the possible misuse of hypnosis?
Well, regardless, I am an amature - I've placed myself in a few trance states using pre-recorded hypnosis sessions and successfully place a few others in light trance states - which isn't to say I'm ignorant; as I've mentioned before, I spent a fair bit of time reading about hypnosis - as a... in respect to anthony's statement, a state of human consciousness and as a treatment, wrote a few papers, nothing major. I am an enthusiast about the use of hypnotherapy.
If I gave the impression I'd observed the study, then I'm sorry, that was not my intent - I can't recall whether I discussed it with a professor or read it in a book.
Anyway, I understand, and would expect people to refer to me as Hal, but another person named 'hal' was posting some questions about abuses of... the hypnotic state, and I suspect that's what the other posters were talking about when they said I'd posted about the negative aspects of hypnosis before...
I AM interested in understanding the hypnotic state, and realize that requires practice, but I'm on this board to discuss the state.
Moving on, I think it's difficult to argue that the hypnotic state couldn't be exploited toward unethical ends... the same is true for all psychology and technology in general. That in no way discredits the validity and utility of hypnotherapy in helping those with psychological dysfunctions... nuclear energy can destroy cities or heat homes - it isn't evil by its very nature, and neither is the utilization of the hypnotic state. To pretend that a downside doesn't exist is to ignore past experience; to accept the good with the bad and proceed forward with eyes wide open is progress.
quote:I think it's difficult to argue that the hypnotic state couldn't be exploited toward unethical ends... the same is true for all psychology and technology in general. That in no way discredits the validity and utility of hypnotherapy in helping those with psychological dysfunctions... nuclear energy can destroy cities or heat homes - it isn't evil by its very nature, and neither is the utilization of the hypnotic state. To pretend that a downside doesn't exist is to ignore past experience; to accept the good with the bad and proceed forward with eyes wide open is progress.
unadept--hal- It has become apparent to all, that no matter what anyone else might say, you will continue to use this forum to say that there is a dark side to the use of hypnosis. You continue to repeat that you are an interested amateur and continue to ignore the input that experienced professionals post in rebuttal to your unproven statements. I have nothing more to say on this subject and will not give you further opportunity to include your allegations in further responses. Gil Boyne
Gil Boyne www.gil-boyne.com [Gil Passed Away May 5, 2010]
Accusing me of being a member of a secret conspiracy to discredit hypnotherapy hardly counts as rebuttle...
Anyway, saying that the hypnotic state couldn't be exploited by unethical individuals is like saying gasoline couldn't be used to burn down a house. Admittedly, it would be more difficult, because a person generally has to agree to, and participate in, the act of hypnosis in order for it to have effect. I'm not making allegations, I'm simply stating what I understand to be the case; if it IS impossible - rather then unethical - to command someone to perform nefarious deeds while under hypnosis, then please state why, rather then just accusing me of being a terrible person who you will hate forever.
I mean, really, I don't understand what's so divisive about these statements.
Unadept, This forum is open to all who seek legimate help with hypnosis questions and that is their privilege accorded by this site. You, however have continued to pursue a nonsensical nebulous attitude in seeking a dark side to this profession. The only dark side to this profession is the people who abuse their power for their own selfish gratitude, in which, most are arrested, prosecuted, and imprisoned for criminal intentions. Our profession is well-respected and honest professionals such as Gil,Anthony, and a host of others, including myself have attempted to satisfy your inquisitive search for answers. Take my advise, if you will, and become a student of hypnosis and the positive results it obtains. Looking for a dark side or an abuse of hypnosis power is trying to beat a dead horse. There is none. Open your eyes to the wonderful things hypnosis can do, not what it cannot do.
BK, no, that's not my purpose at all. At the moment, I'm ONLY interested in using hypnosis on MYSELF, self-impovement through self-hypnosis.
All I've done is respond to the first poster's statement with a vague story I recalled hearing, and in turn respond to the host of statements posted about me.
You and I seem to agree that hypnosis CAN be used for nefarious ends, but that it SHOULDN'T be, for both ethical and legal reasons. I'm not arguing that the hypnotic state SHOULD be abused, or IS abused, merely that it COULD, in theory, be abused.
I think people are merely massively misunderstanding my interests here.
- Hal
P.S. Sorry for the hyperboil, but I'm feeling a little... invalidated here. I'm just trying to have a dialog about hypnosis and I'm being accused of being a vicious anti-hypnotherapy conspirator and some kind of Sith Lord of Hypnosis.
I recall a very famous case where a man was hypnotized to commit murder... it was set up for him to get a phone call to act as the trigger and then... oh wait, that was a movie I saw. Never mind.
UnAdept, your command of semantics is superfluous here. I bet you look up a big word everyday for practice. Seriously, you say you are an enthusiast of hypnosis. Exactly what is that? You say you have hypnotized other people? Undoubtedly, you must be aware of the possible implications you are subjecting yourself to. Playing with fire can get you burnt. A pilot doesn't fly without lessons and experience. A lawyer doesn't practice law without a law degree. Why do you do it? Because it's entertaining? And makes you feel like you can do anything? Anyone can make a person relax with words, but a true professional hypnotherapist knows exactly what to do because he is trained and has the experience to deal with any situation. What would happen if one of your friends went into convulsions because you accidently brought back a painful memory or even had a heart attack due to the stress and strain you have put them through? What if the person didn't come out of hypnosis? What would you do? Reading books for academic purposes and listening to tapes or CD's are fine, but real experience comes from hands on experience. I would suggest you educate yourself further on hypnosis. There are very good books on hypnosis that will answer your questions you posed to this forum. Some friendly advise, skip the double-talk confusing rhetoric. Have a nice day!
There's really no reason to be insulting - this is just the way I write, and frankly, I don't see anything wrong with it.
Anyway, yes, I did hypnotize a few people into a very light trance several years ago - it was out of interest and curiosity, as I was writing a paper for my Introduction to Psychology course at the time.
See, this is what I don't understand: are you advising me to or warning me against seeking hands-on experience? I've come to understand that the only way to learn the practical application of hypnosis is to practice on others, and because I don't have a suitibly pliable subject on hand, I don't have the chance to learn hypnosis.
When I say I'm an enthusiast of hypnotherapy, I mean I am enthused by it, I'm excited and think it's the very future of psychology. Hypnotherapy, statistically, claims a better rate of success then psychoanalysis, behaviorism and cognitive therapy, with far less recidivism - it is, I believe, the way of the future, if only there was more scientific interest in the field.
Incedently, I've seen a number of FAQs and the like that say it's impossible to be trapped in hypnosis... I don't think that's misinformation.
The other day I was listening to a self-hypnosis script on my headphones - I'd been placed in a rather deep trance (the tape had been going for 27 minutes by this point), when suddenly the tape cut off. For some reason, the playback had stopped; it took a few minutes, but I was able to rouse myself from the trance state. I don't know if that's because, without the hypnotist's soothing voice, the trance state deteriorates, or because self-hypnosis isn't as deep as hypnotherapist induced hypnosis, but there you have it.
ROWLAND, L. W. Will hypnotized persons try to harm themselves or others? J. abnorm. soc. Psychol., 1939, 34, 114-117.
The replication:
YOUNG, P. C. Antisocial uses of hypnosis. In L. M. LeCron (Ed.), Experimental hypnosis. New York: Macmillan, 1952. Pp. 376-409.
Another replication, with rebuttle - i.e., control group that behaves the same way as the experimental (hypnotized) group
Orne, M. T. Hypnosis, motivation and compliance. American Journal of Psychiatry, 1966, 122, 721- 726.
I wasn't able to find the first two articles anywhere on the web, but the curious should have no problem ordering back copies or finding them at a local university. I was able to find a scholarly copy of the final article, which I'll post here.
These are, by all reports, important - indeed, landmark - cases in psychology and hypnosis, and much referenced.
- Hal
P.S. Sorry, the study and link's to the discussion of the subject, by the person who did the rebuttle (Orne), hang on while I find the other article.
P.P.S. Well, I can't find the link to the re-test and rebuttle article I wanted to cite, I'll look for it later. This is the study, however:
Orne, M. T., and Evans, F. J.: Social Control in the Psychological Experiment: Antisocial Behavior and Hypnosis, J. Pers. Soc. Psychol. 1:189-200, 1965.
Ah, here we are, the experiment conducted by Orne and Evans with both a hypnotized experimental group and a non-hypnotized control group, both of whom, within the context of the laboratory setting, performed the same acts as in the prior studies of Rowland and Young.
quote:Subjects have implicit faith that experimenters are responsible people, that they will not be asked to carry out tasks which are devoid of meaning, and that regardless of appearances they will not be permitted to suffer any harm because of obvious social sanctions.
In the Rowland, Young and Orne studies, the subjects were subjected to two experimental conditions, in which they were asked to pick up a roap, which they had been led to believe was a rattlesnake, and throw concentraited supheric acid into the face of a lab assistant. The majority of subjects complied.
What makes the Orne study different was that his non-hypnotized control group behaved in the same manner as the hypnotized group - Orne suggests, in his discussion, that this is due to the laboratory setting, as I've quoted above.
So, Orne concludes that these studies are insufficiant to conclude that hypnotism can cause a person to act against his will or intent to the extent that it harms either themselves or another person.
So, what is your point? What are you trying to prove here? If I remember correctly, you wanted help with a question concerning yourself about self-hypnosis. Bottomline, experiement or not, no one can be hypnotized to cause harm to themselves or anyone else unless they have an underlying psychological disorder that goes beyond hypnosis. Hypnosis is a therapeutic tool to help individuals overcome a subconscious disorder. It seems you want to stand on your soap box and dictate other people's work through hearsay and books while attempting to disguise a meaningless question concerning yourself about self-hypnosis. I have become weary of your means of self gratification to explore areas that you have no education, training, or experience in. If you have a point to all this, let's hear it. Otherwise, please do not waste our time trying to philosophize your views and expect us to respond. If you have a point to a question, ask it without the Einstein view of your point in 2000 words or less.
quote:So, what is your point? What are you trying to prove here? If I remember correctly, you wanted help with a question concerning yourself about self-hypnosis.
I made a statement based on hearsay, and caught flack for it - these are the studies that justify that statement. I posted my question on self-hypnosis in another thread.
quote:Bottomline, experiement or not, no one can be hypnotized to cause harm to themselves or anyone else unless they have an underlying psychological disorder that goes beyond hypnosis.
The study by Orne refutes the earlier studies by Young and Rowland, so there's no basis for claiming that hypnotism can or cannot cause people to act outside their nature - it's a scientific unknown.
quote:It seems you want to stand on your soap box and dictate other people's work through hearsay and books while attempting to disguise a meaningless question concerning yourself about self-hypnosis.
What? I just don't want people thinking I'm conspiring to ruin hypnotherapy for everybody out of some... misguided ideal.
quote:If you have a point to all this, let's hear it.
I'm just posting the study I refered to earlier - because of mentioning the study, without the reference, I've been accused of, well, to quote mark-gil:
quote:Hal, you are either misinformed or persuing your own private agenda.
Why is it so difficult to understand that I'm not messing with ANYBODY, just trying to have a conversation where I'm not always on the defensive because somebody on this forum is accusing me of something absurd.
Unadept Hal, Hmmm, that rather sounds insulting doesn't it, but it wasn't intended to be (G)... First of all, doctors, dentists, phycologists et al, have all been caught abusing their positions, so should we look with suspicion on all these professions, and on those professionals who fill our needs daily? Should we stop making airplanes because they might be used to drop bombs on inocent people? Of course, if we do that we have no flying doctors, no ability to drop food to the starving people in the earthquake ravaged zones of Pakistan. No, of course these are not realistic attitudes, so why then should we consider your queries to be anything of value either? If you truly are interested in self hypnosis, visiting this board will NOT get you far, we don't train and we can't train. See a local and take a course. By the way, there is no such thing as a amateur in hypnosis, you can be a neophyte, a beginner, a student, but NOT an amateur because that suggests playing with something that can well be dangerous if misused as well as abused..Why do we take umbridge at your comments? Well first of all, they are just as one sided as the suggestions I offered above, and secondly, they insult the ethics of those of us who practise with care and concern for our clients. You, by your own admission, have PLAYED with hypnosis, a terrible thing to do by someone supposedly well educated. Do it right, or leave it alone, either way we have exhausted the intents of these posts, and would like to stick to aiding those in need of real advice from real professionals....
quote:First of all, doctors, dentists, phycologists et al, have all been caught abusing their positions, so should we look with suspicion on all these professions, and on those professionals who fill our needs daily? Should we stop making airplanes because they might be used to drop bombs on inocent people?
Not at all, that's not what I'm suggesting for hypnotherapy at all. I simply responded to the original poster's statement, mentioning a study I recalled from University, which I've now officially cited (and, incedently, provided a rebuttle study for).
quote:No, of course these are not realistic attitudes, so why then should we consider your queries to be anything of value either?
Sorry, what?
quote:If you truly are interested in self hypnosis, visiting this board will NOT get you far, we don't train and we can't train.
Of course not, but we can discuss it, can we not?
quote:By the way, there is no such thing as a amateur in hypnosis, you can be a neophyte, a beginner, a student, but NOT an amateur because that suggests playing with something that can well be dangerous if misused as well as abused.
Well, er... at this juncture, it's only my well-being that I'm taking into my hands, and since there's no governmental regulation of hypnosis, I feel I'm fully justified in continuing as I have... the self-hypnosis is working well, I think, by the way.
quote:Why do we take umbridge at your comments? Well first of all, they are just as one sided as the suggestions I offered above
Fair enough; I did, initially, only present one side of the argument, expecting rebuttle... instead, I was accused of being either a member of a conspiracy against hypnotherapy, or an idiot.
I have now, however, presented the other side of the argument, through the Orne paper.
quote:and secondly, they insult the ethics of those of us who practise with care and concern for our clients.
In no way have I implied that ANY hypnotherapist, to my knowledge, has abused the hypnotic state, in any of my posts - I merely posit that, given the nature of the state, such abuse is, strictly in theory, possible.
quote:You, by your own admission, have PLAYED with hypnosis, a terrible thing to do by someone supposedly well educated.
Well, to be fair, I've been led to believe that hypnosis itself is not particularly dangerous. I related above how I was left in a trance state by a recording, but gradually awoke without difficulty. Nobody was done any harm, nor did anything lead me to believe there was any danger prior to my few attempts at hypnosis.
quote:Do it right, or leave it alone, either way we have exhausted the intents of these posts, and would like to stick to aiding those in need of real advice from real professionals....
Sure you can't all be of one mind about the subjects of hypnosis and hypnotherapy - don't you discuss these practices at all?
Anyway, I tried to see if a friend of mine would 'shoot' someone, and in the end he would not. I instructed him to do it, and he refused. Before doing it, we discussed it, and he believed he would have no problems 'shooting' anyone. What are your experiences with such situations?
I suggest you try to see if you can convince your friend to shoot you. Asking them to shoot someone else is not fair - but you giving them permission to shoot you, should do the trick.
Unfortunately all the Hypnotists who have been successful at this test are not around to post their findings.
I'm pretty sure David Sacks here didn't actually give his hypnotized friend a gun and order him to kill someone.
I think it's far more likely, based on his statment, that he told his hypnotized friend that he had a gun (even though he didn't), and then ordered him to 'shoot' (his word) someone.
reply from the other hal.... sometimes folk on hypnosis sites really do go over the top and attack people asking questions on the subject of hypnosis and some of the myths surrounding it. Why not be a little constructive. Hey why not give someone the reasons behind why subjects will or will not carry out a hypnotic suggestion which is normally against their moral or ethical nature. The usual exuse is well all hypnotists would be billionaires as they could make their bank manager obey thieir every whim. Or we would not need an army as we could hypnotise our enemy. I believe the biggest power lies with those able to make students of hypnosis pay thousands of pounds,or dollars to learn some new hypnosis gimmick or how to earn a fortune as a hypnotherapist. How many books on the subject have you read to learn nothing at all new,and not prommising anywhere near it said in the adds. I myself have only ever found around four books worth the money and the best was the cheapest,with no padding out at all. hal...or alan..which you prefer !!
Id like to thank UnAdept. You are correct, I did not hand a gun to my friend. I received a lot of problems on another forum, as they were adamant that I was out to kill people! Let me just make it clear. I would never do anything that would have negative side effects, I will always practice with in my scope of knowledge.
I’m 19. I've read many books and spoken to many people about hypnosis; so I’m not going to call my self a hypnotist, rather someone who knows about hypnosis. I’m in the process of signing up for a course (not many in South Africa).
What happened was: I handed my friend a ball, and said it was a gun. I told him to shoot a person, sitting in front of him. He hesitated for a while, then I instructed more strongly for him to do it. He still hesitated, finally I said "I’m telling you to shoot, do it!" At this point, he had tears in his voice and said he could not. I then ended it.
Next, I told him to shoot a pillow, who in fact was the same person, this time around, he had no trouble and 'shot' with the ball.
So in the end my friend would not do it. Previously we had discussed this, and he was sure that he would shoot, with either a fake (ball) gun or a real gun. I told him, I believed he would not, and in the end, he did not. Yet, I wonder if my opinion shifted his, as we discussed this for many hours prior to doing it.
Interestingly, I have had varying success with a couple of people, as I’m still pretty new to the practical part of hypnosis. But this particular friend always falls fast and deep. In fact the other day, I tried a rapid induction, which worked within 10 seconds! It is so effective that he can be sitting at a computer working, and within a few seconds of suggestion he will fall under.
My friend trusts me greatly. Does the rapid induction work because he is very suggestible, or is it a combination of high suggestibility and deep trust?
David, you sound surprised by the fact that you were jumped on because of your post? Not only are you playing with hypnosis, but what is worse, you believe you can experiment with it, something that is only reasonable for those well verse and well trained to begin with. You ask how you can do the experiment in such a manner as to prove something, and fact is, unless you hand your friend a real loaded gun, and suggest he is angry with you and should shoot you to remove that anger, you will not have an acceptable experiment. Taking any precaution in advance will negate the experiment, since your friend is highly alert, and can be assumed to know of any precautions you take for your safety. Now tell us, are you so sure now that you want to do this? Are you now sure that hypnosis is safe to play with? Or am I right, and you don;t have the guts to put your faith were you mouth is? If you must play, go get a sand box, and stop trying to play with the big boys, when all you have is a toy gun....
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Subjects suggestibility/ ability
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 6:16:09 PM
