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mark-gil Posted - 11/23/2008 : 12:08:56 PM
Many hypnotherapy "instructors" simply copy material from books and other trainers' manuals and announce they are in business. Teaching any subject requires a great deal more than reiterating the material created by others. Students can go to the library and learn as much and save their tuition money.
A skilled professional teacher requires several attributes to communicate his subject matter so that it is meaningful and makes a lasting impression on the students. Here are some checkpoints.

1) A lengthy background of specialized experience (10 yrs. or more of private practice and research.)
2) A history of successful outcomes with the vast majority of his clients.
3) A passion for the work and a burning desire to "PASS ON" the knowledge and skills he has acquired.
4) High levels of enthusiasm and even excitement in communicating with the students.
5) Maintaining a positive and optimistic attitude.
6. Avoids grandiose statements, guarantees,and exaggerated claims in advertising
Some "schools" advertise a "one Year course" which is really two nights per week. They proudly present subjects such as "handwriting analysis", EFT, Reiki,Energy Fields and a smörgåsbord
of totally unrelated subjects as special therapy tools in their "hypnotherapy course". This is a sign that they lack the knowledge and experience to teach a comprehensive training in this highly specialized form of therapy.
Executive Director,
26   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
patrickg Posted - 12/06/2008 : 11:42:59 AM

Ron Surface Posted - 12/06/2008 : 11:15:46 AM
Here's some more feedback on the California law. Randal was nice enough to provide some links he thought would be helpful, so I'll pass them along. I think the first two links he provides covers information we've basically covered, but the third link is to the 'disclosure statement' recommended by the ACHE, which might be helpful.

The response is from Randal Churchill, Director of the Hypnotherapy Training Institute in Corte Madera, CA. He is also past president of the ACHE. Here's his response:

"I continue to feel that overall the SB577 California law is a very good one. It's simple, reasonable and fair, written in plain English, relatively brief, and not overly restrictive. It also gives a very positive acknowledgement of complementary practices in general. To my knowledge this law has been working out fine, and I know of no problems anyone has had with it. Here is a direct link to the wording of SB577 from the ACHE website: www.hypnotistexaminers.com:80/SB577.html The following link gives the letter that Gil Boyne and I wrote (as Executive Director and President of the ACHE) when the law was about to go into effect: www.hypnotistexaminers.com:80/legislation.html and here is our recommended disclosure form: www.hypnotistexaminers.com:80/disclosure.html " (End quote)

In general, I think most people are happy with the law. This will probably be the last 'feedback' response I post since everyone seems to be in agreement on it.

Hope this helps,


patrickg Posted - 12/03/2008 : 11:28:03 PM
Thank you very much the follow-up, Ron. I think I'm going to get this info some people here. This would be a good thing to get on the books in Oregon.

Appreciate it!

Ron Surface Posted - 12/03/2008 : 8:08:31 PM
Hi Patrick,

As far as I can tell the law in California is working out fine.

In addition to CA, five other states have health freedom laws on the books - ID, MN, OK, LA, RI. Several more states are trying to get similar laws passed.

When I wrote the blockbuster free e-book 'Hypnosis De-Mystified', Dr. C Scot Giles, the Legislative and Governmental Concerns Liason of the NGH, was nice enough to contact me and share his thoughts on it.

I thought I'd contact him and get his opinion of the law. He said I could quote him, so here's his response,

"In general the Health Freedom Laws are working well around the country. The only problem with them has been that a lot of the practitioners are naive about what happens once the law is passed. They think that once the law exists, they can relax. The reality is that once the law is passed other professional groups will try to modify it to their advantage by inserting wording that limits what alternative practitioners can do.

Therefore, once these things are passed the fight is not over. You have to defend them on an on-going basis." (End quote)

I guess the saying's true, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

I like the laws. As you said, they help separate hypnotherapy from traditional medicine and also help protect the public. Plus, the way most state medical laws are written, anytime you offer assistance for a health related problem, you are technically practicing medicine. Health freedom laws allow alternative practioners to offer their services to the public without being in violation of medical practice laws.

Take care,

Ron Surface Posted - 11/28/2008 : 7:24:08 PM
Hi Gil and everyone,

You can go to www.californiahealthfreedom.com and click on the link 'SB-577' in the first paragraph to see a copy of the law. Just thought I'd try and save you a little trouble.

mark-gil Posted - 11/28/2008 : 7:04:33 PM
Hello Ron, Patrick, et al- I am searching my files and will post the California disclosure regulation as soon as I find it. Gil Boyne
Ron Surface Posted - 11/28/2008 : 3:08:10 PM
Hi Patrick,

I know a few hypnotists and other alternative practitioners in California, but haven't spoken with them for a while. As far as I know, the law's working fine.

Maybe there are members of this forum from CA who could give their opinion. If not, I'll try to contact some people I know to get an update.

ForumMaster Posted - 11/28/2008 : 12:20:34 PM
This thread has moved on from the original post topic into a discussion of the legislative side of Hypnosis - it has been moved into this "Legislation & Legal Discussion" board.

Gil's first post has been reposted into the "General Discussion - Schools and Learning" and this topic will continue here.
patrickg Posted - 11/28/2008 : 11:34:22 AM

My information comes from
A major east coast hypnosis organization

Lots of talk about New York, Indiana and how other states are at risk for these things and we need to update terminology and job titles.

Comments on their concern for $ and "we're right, they're all wrong" can be saved for another conversation. Different groups are in business for themselves, not necessarily for their members. Some groups more, some less.

I have openly compared the chiropractor situation with hypnosis. The risk factor is an important aspect that I had not thought of.

I like your posts too. Always a lot of experience behind your statements. I'm glad you frequent this message board.

What do you think about the California's law SB-577?


I checked the link you posted as well as read what they have done in California. I think I like their position. It seems to separate hypnosis from conventional health care in a way that protects it as well as the consumer.

Do you know hypnotists in California? How has this law been working out?

Thank you!

Ron Surface Posted - 11/28/2008 : 08:42:59 AM
Hi Patrick,

I don't think your post sounds confused or disjointed which you said it might, it sounds to me like a realistic assessment of the situation, although I agree with Gil that regulation of chiropractors is entirely different.

Like I said before, if we're going to have a law, I prefer the one in California. It protects the rights of the consumer to see the alternative provider of their choice. My understanding is it was led by the National Health Freedom Coalition (NHFC), which put together a broad coalition of alternative therapy providers, including hypnosis organizations such as the ACHE and NGH. Their website is www.nationalhealthfreedom.org if you're interested in checking them out. They have chapters in most states, and if not, they have information you can get on starting a chapter in your state.

My understanding of the California law is this - The way most state medical laws are written, anytime someone comes to you for pain control or any number of other complaints, if you offer assistance, you are technically practicing medicine (without a license). However, many alternative therapies are completely safe (hypnosis) and are not based on medical principles. Since millions of Californians use alternative therapies, it would be wrong to deny them the right to utilize these services because of a technical violation of the law. So the law just requires the alternative provider to disclose to the client in writing that they are not a member of the medical community, and to also provide a description of the services offered and the level of training the provider has had (which also acts as an incentive to receive more training). The reasoning was also since these therapies are safe, there's no need for the govt. to regulate them. This way the consumer can make an informed decision, and has the right to see the provider of their choice.

Hypnosis organizations have been all over the board with their lobbying efforts over the last decade or so. They've supported everything from keeping hypnotherapy a self-regulated profession to supporting state certification (Indiana), which obviously is giving up our right for self-regulation and supporting govt. regulation. Currently they seem to favor 'registration' laws. I don't like the laws. Registering implies that you have met some minimum standard before being allowed to register. Nothing could be further from the truth. Anyone can walk in, pay a fee and walk out a 'registered hypnotherapist'. It gives the fly-by-nights an air of legitimacy and I think it's very misleading to the public. It gives the false impression the govt. is to some extent overseeing the profession, making sure only those who have met certain standards are allowed to practice.

I agree with your assessment. Instead of sitting around doing nothing and hoping nothing happens, we need to be more proactive. If you agree with the approach taken in California, I think the NHFC is our best bet of protecting our profession and the public. They seem to have a clear goal in mind and haven't wavered in their commitment to it.


mark-gil Posted - 11/28/2008 : 07:46:06 AM
Hello Patrick, I am glad we have this opportunity to openly express what we "know" about this subject.
Quote;At the same time information I have seen shows progressively more states are adopting some sort of legislation that involves our scope of practice.

Can you give specific information and name source(s)?
I have heard such "information" very many times in my position as Director of ACHE and almost always the info can to traced to an ulterior motive. Examples; "Members of our Association (Organization) will be grandfathered in" or "join the Hypnotist's Union (and pay monthly dues)and you will safe" or "we have been assured that the curriculum at our Institute will meet all requirements of the new laws".
New York is the only state that has restricted the practice of hypnotherapy and banned the use of the lawful title "hypnotherapist".
A major east coast hypnosis organization knew far in advance about the bill and had meetings with the proponents of the bill and made extraordinary concessions to them (instead of fighting the bill). It is now unlawful for anyone other than a state licensed healing arts professional to use the term. All others must call themselves "hypnotists". The same organization has told it's members throughout the USA to use only the term "hypnotist" As Ron has said, the Indiana
hypnotism bill is a disaster, brought about by the same organization filing lawsuits against the Indiana state legislature. There are rumours in the pipeline that efforts to revoke the law are underway.
The separation and hard feelings between hypnosis organizations hurts the overall effect they could be having.
Patrick, these organizations are in competition with each other (for the almighty dollar) and the call for unity has always been totally ignored by them.
The struggle of the chiropractors for licensing is often mentioned as a corollary to the current positioning of the hypnotherapy profession. There is no comparison! Chiropractic involves manipulation of the spine and bony structure and therefore risks for the patient do exist. There are no documented cases of harm or threats to public health and safety from the practice of hypnotherapy!
Thank you for your many insightful posts, I always enjoy reading them
Gil Boyne
patrickg Posted - 11/27/2008 : 10:47:41 PM
Gil and Ron,

I appreciate your perspectives. I think my post will sound a little confused and disjointed, which is exactly how I feel about the topic.

My own perspective is limited by the amount of time I've been a hypnotist (5 1/2 years). I would be happy to be a professional hypnotist for the next 50 years. And that is where my worry lies.

The examples Gil gives are huge steps forward for the profession. At the same time information I have seen shows progressively more states are adopting some sort of legislation that involves our scope of practice.

Hypnosis is gaining acceptance and legitimacy. This opens up potential business to those motivated to go after it.

Currently, in Oregon where I live, there is no certification level or education requirement for someone to practice hypnosis. In this climate, there is a lot of room for something to go wrong. Other professions want to control this modality. It would seem the lack of oversight in the profession of hypnosis gives them more leverage to grab that control.

The separation and hard feelings (legitimate or not) between hypnosis organizations hurts the overall affect they could be having.

Chiropractors became a separate profession in the late 70's. I should probably research that time to understand the pros and cons for them..

Would appreciate further thoughts.
HypnoDoc Posted - 11/27/2008 : 8:08:41 PM
It would appear that Harry has packed his bags and decided to leave - just as quickly as he came in. I find it amusing when people come in, make these broad statements and then give up when they find they don't have a lot of people defending their position. I guess he was so embarrassed with his statements that he felt the need to remove them before his departure. The digital equivalent to "taking my ball and going home."

Oh well... there are plenty of Hypnosis Forums out there - I guess he is off to try another. It is too bad; no one was really moderating or deleting his posts. I guess he just couldn't take the opposition.

Come back Harry. No one wants to see you go - we just want you to think about these things and be open to discussion. After all that is what this forum is all about.
mark-gil Posted - 11/27/2008 : 4:13:28 PM
Hello Patrick, With respect, I beg to disagree. In 1976, psychologists were licensed in California and for the next twenty-five years state boards of psychologists created legislative bills to restrict the practice to licensed healing arts and psychotherapy professionals.
I crisscrossed the USA many times to speak against these bills and 32 bills were defeated by me and a few associates. Finally, state psychology associations took the position that they would no longer use their time, energy and money to pursue an untenable position.
John Kappas and I were instrumental in persuading the United States Dept. of Labor to accept our definition of " Hypnotherapist" in the Federal Dictionary of Occupational Titles. This is the "Bible" of state and federal decisions as to funding vocational rehabilitation for injured workers,opportunity grants and similar programs.
A few years later, I made a presentation to the United States Dept.
of Education that led to "Hypnotherapy Training Programs" being included in the Federal Directory of Instructional Programs with all of the ACHE approved schools listed as providers of training. This legal recognition gave new status and recognition to the profession of hypnotherapy, As to the fly-by-nights, con-men and grifters, they are a small part of a great mosaic that continues to grow exponentially.
I am entering my 55th year as a full-time hypnotherapist and instructor and have fought the battles and won the victories.
Let's give up the fear and talk about the great work that is being done around the globe every day by competent, well trained and experienced hypnotherapists.
Ron Surface Posted - 11/27/2008 : 11:00:00 AM
Hi Patrick,

By the time I read this thread, Harry had deleted his posts. It was hard to tell what was being said.

Here's a few of my thoughts.

Our hypnosis organizations don't get along that well. I can't see them working together on a comprehensive training standard they would all agree on. Even if they would agree, if there's no law enforcing it, then anyone could still start their own practice or certifying organization and we would still have the fly-by-nights. On the other hand, if there is a law enforcing some training standard, then we have the problem with psychiatrists I mentioned above.

Personally, I like the law in California which requires the hypnotist to disclose to the client, in writing, the level of training they've had, makes sure the client understands they're not a medical professional and things of that nature. I think this helps protect the public, but otherwise keeps govt. regulation out of our profession. It's not perfect, but all in all I like it better than anything else I've heard of.

What do you think should be done?

Best Regards,
(and Happy Thanksgiving)

patrickg Posted - 11/27/2008 : 09:17:51 AM

I agree with what you say about government regulation - special interests.

Hypnosis is s special interest as well and I believe we as a profession should be more proactive about protecting our profession. If we do not work to create some oversight within our profession, it would seem to just be a matter of time before someone else does it for us (and takes it from us)?? I just can't see how sitting back and hoping nothing happens will help anything.

The fly-by-night hypnosis instruction and hypnotists we all see will continue to do their thing and continue to affect the profession.

mark-gil Posted - 11/27/2008 : 07:26:28 AM
Hello Ron, Spot on--Well said-GB
Ron Surface Posted - 11/27/2008 : 04:02:23 AM
Thought I'd add my two cents about government regulation.

Those who support govt. regulation say that having the govt. set minimum training requirements will result in better training and more qualified hypnotherapists. It sounds reasonable, and if that's all there was to it, it might be a good idea. But there's more to it than that.

Since hypnosis deals with the mind, if the govt. regulates it, mainstream psychiatrists or psychologists will be the ones overseeing our profession, since they're the 'experts' on the mind. The problem is, it doesn't matter to them if you have 100 or 500 or 1000 hours of training, you're still stepping on what they consider their turf. They don't want someone who has a few hundred hours of training helping a client in one or two sessions when they have years of training and usually keep the client coming back for months or years.

Look at what govt. regulation did in Indiana. Every time they (psychiatrists) have the opportunity, they use it to restrict our scope of practice, which is just another way of saying, they restrict the publics right to use alternative therapies.

'Protecting the public' is the reason used to justify regulation. The truth is, there's usually some special interest group behind the effort, trying to protect their own interests by eliminating or reducing competition.

Best Regards,

mark-gil Posted - 11/24/2008 : 3:32:07 PM
Ok Harry, We can agree to disagree on some points and still remain friends. I understand your position and point of view. With Respect, Gil Boyne
mark-gil Posted - 11/24/2008 : 2:43:32 PM
quoting Harry-
a)Over here there is a popular move amongst professional hypnotherapists to have hypnotherapy regulated by law.
b)The idea being that only properly qualified persons could legally trade as hypnotherapists, and
c)they'd all be high quality professionals with full insurance cover. d)Every hypnotherapist I know here supports the idea.

My replies; a)-I teach Master Classes to practicing hypnotherapists (Just completed one in London with 32 hypnotherapists in attendance)and when we discuss this subject, they overwhelmingly oppose regulation by any governmental agency. Further, The British Parliament, on three separate occasions has held debates on this subject and each time it was determined that there was no need to regulate hypnotherapy. I feel certain that their input was more comprehensive than that which you received from "those you know".
b) How will properly qualified hypnotherapists be determined and by whom? Will it be psychiatrists, psychotherapists, registered psychologists and others who will demand six to ten years of university training as "proper qualification"?
c)they'd all be high quality professionals. Your use of universal modifiers such as all is unknowing and an effort to mislead.
With full insurance coverage
Ah, here is the magic phrase that excites the imagination of every wannabe! To be paid for talking to patients with a diverse and often nebulous list of symptoms and complaints. Of course, in most cases, these hypnotists are people who want to read scripts or play a CD(found on the internet) and when clients fail to respond, tell them, "You are not hypnotisable", thereby destroying their hope--"I have tried everything, including hypnosis and even that did not work for me" These would-be therapists are unknowing, unwilling and/or unable to pay the price to build a reputation and a career.
Harry, I have trained about 6,000 hypnotherapist in ten countries in 37 yrs.and I think my experience gives me an authority to say to you.
Your ideas are wrong and unworkable.Some may feel my message to be harshly spoken but often the truth from informed sources can change fixed ideas. I hope that this is such a situation.
With Respect, Gil Boyne
patrickg Posted - 11/24/2008 : 1:50:30 PM
I agree with your assessment.

I get referrals from medical doctors, dentists, counselors, and psychologists. But, it has taken a lot of effort, as well as proving myself, to earn their trust.
patrickg Posted - 11/24/2008 : 12:38:04 PM
Yes, they are embarrassed to bring it up. Though, over time, I have I started getting referrals from dentists.

I would support that idea as well. It needs some form of regulation and enforcement. This would not stop bad experiences from happening... Conventional therapy still has it's share of scare stories, but it would vastly reduce them. Further maturing the profession.
patrickg Posted - 11/24/2008 : 10:36:48 AM
Originally posted by Harry

Interesting too that many doctors and dentists over here are now training in hypnosis, and that it's offered as a module in medical degrees.

My wife is an Orthodontist and a portion the dental program included hypnosis. The dentists in my area are generally familiar with the application of hypnosis with dentistry. But, they very rarely would use it themselves and are extremely reluctant to bring it up to a patient as an option. They are afraid of how the subject of hypnosis would affect their reputation.
mark-gil Posted - 11/24/2008 : 07:02:40 AM
quoting Harry;
Personally speaking I do not believe that hypnotherapy should be practiced unless it is by someone trained in another area such as counseling or psychotherapy (or other medical area)

Harry, It sounds as if you feel that everyone should have a university degree and become a state-licensed psychotherapist before practicing hypnotherapy. The joke is that university curriculum leading to licensing DO NOT teach hypnotherapy!
After several years of practice, I sought out psychotherapy training. My first one was an internship at the Institute of Therapeutic Psychology, Director, Everett Shostrom, PhD. and Professor of Psychology at University of Calif. at Irvine. I attended for eight weeks, 5 days each week and spent each weekend at Lake Arrowhead. Ca., in special group programs. This was a total of 57 days, eight hours per day. Every day, I was in a group therapy plus three sessions of personal therapy each week and lectures and films were presented daily. The director and staff had two words for hypnotherapy, "too directive", but they had no training or real understanding of hypnosis/hypnotherapy.
I had some benefits from the experience but I did not find any great superiority in psychotherapy methods.
I felt more knowledgeable and the greatest benefit for me was their promotion of Gestalt Therapy. I was encouraged to go to Esalen Institute where Fritz Perls, founder of Gestalt Therapy, was in residence and giving 5-day workshops to professional therapists. In the next two years I attended 5 workshops (25 days) and even had several therapy sessions with Dr. Perls. Did I become a Gestaltist? NO! Gestalt Therapy is non-analytic and my work is termed Hypnoanalysis.
However,I did acquire some techniques and principles that I was able to merge with my work. Although I did training with several other major figures in the psychotherapy world, I only became more convinced that hypnotherapy was a more direct, short term therapy to uncover and bring resolution to a very wide range of human problems, issues and goals.
Did I become a better therapist as a result of the expenditure of my time, money and energy? ABSOLUTELY ! The greatest reward was confirming my understanding that hypnotherapy is vastly different from almost every form of psychotherapy and extraordinarily effective when practiced by a committed, experienced and well trained therapist. We need more posts about positive results and fewer about inferior hypnotherapists.
patrickg Posted - 11/23/2008 : 8:03:04 PM

[Moderator Note: Harry removed his post - it was a suggestion that the entire Hypnosis profession be legislated due to his one experience with a single Hypnosis practitioner. That turned this conversation from the original topic into a discussion over the Legislation of Hypnosis.]

I rushed through my earlier response and apologize if it came across harsh.

Being certified in a profession does not mean the person is qualified to be in the profession. I know of good psychologists that are crappy hypnotists, so I do not believe that is the answer.

It sounds like the hypnotist you saw was practicing outside of their training.
Your hypnotist should have referred you to someone else when she got out of her depth. Just like any other professional would have. I think this speaks much more to the individual hypnotists level of professionalism and the lack of oversight within the profession.

That would understandably leave you with a bad impression of the whole profession?

I think the answer lies more in the profession maturing and developing it's standards of training and oversight. It is relatively young, as a profession. Having another profession, such as psychology, annex it, would severely limit the potential of hypnosis. I've seen this in action when x-psychologists start a hypnosis school.

Hypnosis, does not yet have a standardized education. There are associations working to create this, such as Gil Boyne's group, the NGH, and the group you are training with. But, in the mean time.....
patrickg Posted - 11/23/2008 : 7:00:34 PM

Then I think the issue is the quality of the hypnosis training. Being trained in counseling and/or psychotherapy has very little to do with an effective hypnosis session.

There are many sub-par, and pathetically incomplete hypnosis training courses available.

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